Cliffhangers - good or bad?

[naomi_jay]

So, I am off work again, curled up with a hot water bottle and feeling crappy, but trying to be productive. I've always thought of myself as pretty lazy at heart, but I've lost the ability to bum around doing nothing this year. I don't even sleep in at the weekends any more. I know! Anyway, the point is, I'm starting to get some great feedback and thoughts on Night and Chaos (thanks, everyone!). One of the thoughts from one beta reader is that I should finish all three novellas before publishing anything, because the cliffhanger ending might piss off a lot of readers who then have to wait for the next instalment.

Personally I don't mind cliffhangers if they're well done and natural. I remember getting really annoyed with the end of Minion by LA Bank because it cut off so abruptly, like someone had chopped a longer book in half, and I felt as a reader that I'd been cheated somehow. On the other hand, ongoing series often end with threads left dangling and plot points unresolved, and that doesn't bother me so much.

But it's hard for me to be that object about my own work - have I written a cliffhanger that will intrigue or annoy? How am I supposed to judge reader reactions at this stage? *chews nails*

So, thoughts? If it's made clear that the story is part one of X, would it bother you that it ended on a cliffhanger?

Comments

[skarrah.livejournal.com]

Well, I guess it depends on how long they'll have to wait for the next one. Personally, I don't mind waiting a few weeks/months but a year or more and I start to get annoyed. Or I'll forget about it entirely and never buy the sequels.

[naomi-jay.livejournal.com]

Lol, yeah, I'd hate to wait more than a year because I'll doubtless discover so many other series in the mean time...

I've read about some people waiting until all the Karen Marie Moning Fever books were available before reading any because of the cliffhangers.

[eldestmuse.livejournal.com]

That was my original plan but further reflection and irritation just made me decide not to read them at all. I really need to donate the one I bought to the library or something.

But yes those books are the shining example of what not to do with cliffhangers in my opinion. While it's true that they work to get people to buy your next book, they also piss people off, and people with willpower are going to just blacklist your books so they don't get caught up in the cliffhanger feeling.

OTOH since you're self-publishing, you may need to do the cliffhangers to get people to read your next book. (I didn't mean it like that! You know what I mean :() TV Episodes do it for a reason.

[out-totheblack.livejournal.com]

I don't mind cliff hangers, but skarrah has a point on the wait time. I've forgotten about more series than I can remember waiting for the next book.

I think you should write all three novella before you try and publish them, that way, if an inconsistency shows up or you think of a new sub-plot (or something) you can go back and weave it in.

[naomi-jay.livejournal.com]

I think you're probably right... impatience might get the better of me, lol. When I decide to do something, I want to do it immediately and damn the consequences!

[dwg.livejournal.com]

I'm with you on not minding cliffhangers so long as they're organic. I really hate it when a book just suddenly ends or the epilogue is crammed in there to try and end it as quickly as possible. I'm usually stuck with a feeling of "that's it?" and no desire to find out what happens next.

I also don't mind waiting, but I'm probably a freakish zen master when it comes for waiting on books to be released. So that said, it's probably not a bad idea to get at least the second book written before releasing the first. Then you can use the first one as a gauge and release the second one when you're ready.

[naomi-jay.livejournal.com]

I definitely plan to start the next one as soon as possible - hopefully as soon as I've heard from all the beta readers, so everything's fresh in my mind. I suppose the advantage here of self-publishing is I can put something on the Kindle as soon as it's ready, so there doesn't necessarily have to be a year-long wait between releases.

[eldestmuse.livejournal.com]

Turned in my last paper yesterday, reading now!

[out-totheblack.livejournal.com]

I think that is a great idea. If you have all three, then you can space them a couple of months a part. Before you know it, your public will be clambering for more and you'll be cranking out a never ending series.

[dwg.livejournal.com]

It'll probably take that long to navigate through the Kindle help guides.

I wonder what kind of fortune could be made self-publishing a simplified guide to Amazon's Kindle guide.

[eldestmuse.livejournal.com]

I hate cliffhangers in novels, particularly in first books, unless they're very well done and very appropriate--the Dresden Files book Changes comes to mind. If it feels like I'm being manipulated into buying the next book, I won't -- the faefever books were particularly bad books to my mind because plot points never got resolved and they always ended on cliffhangers. I didn't mind the vineart book as much but I still wasn't pleased.

[naomi-jay.livejournal.com]

Out of interest, how do you judge the appropriateness of a cliffhanger? Is it a case of, "the main plot is resolved but there's more to learn"? Or more like "It's a natural ending point for that part of the ongoing story"? Or something else entirely!?

TLDR; I have to trust the author & think there's a good reason

[eldestmuse.livejournal.com]

Honestly it's not even that. It's more like "what do I think the author's intent was here." I know that I'm unusual when it comes to cliffhangers, but I really hate feeling manipulated by an author.

With the Dresden Files, which as I said was one of the very few books I didn't mind the cliffhanger for, there were a couple of reasons it didn't enrage me, beyond the initial surprise. First, it was at the end of like, book 10. I know Butcher didn't do it to jerk me around or con me into buying the next book -- I'm already hooked on the Dresden Files, I would have been eagerly awaiting the next book regardless of the cliffhanger. Second, as senseless and shocking and unexpected as it was, it wasn't gratuitous at all, it wouldn't have been more appropriately placed at the beginning of the next book and the next "phase" of Dresden's life doesn't fit at the end of this one, which was about a transition anyway.

Also, as much as a main character getting shot and moving into the light is a "cliffhanger" in the wtfomgwhat's going to happen next sense of the term, the main looming question was "holy crap, did he really just kill the protagonist" and you can find the answer to that online with the summary of the next book.

Besides, Dresden's life IS unexpected and surprising and there had actually been hints as to that being how he would die. So I never felt cheated, I felt like it made sense and I could sort of see why he did it.

Now in the Faefever books, it felt like a marketing ploy, the books weren't that good anyway, and I firmly believe that in a UF series books should all have their own complete story arc. I don't mind long-running plot points but they should change over too. Story arcs that last 3-4 books is fine, and so are red herrings and set-ups in earlier books, but for god sakes don't leave me hanging on one question for four books and make it one of the central pieces of your story and end every single book on a cliffhanger in the middle of the action that hints to a resolution that never comes even in the next book.

A high fantasy trilogy like the Vineart books, you could see why she ended on a cliffhanger--because the series reads more like the last Harry Potter movie (which I also didn't go see even though I know what's going to happen), e.g. a really long book that got chopped up at the first second and third act climaxes. So while I didn't love that cliffhanger, it didn't make me rage.

Kelley Armstrong's cliffhanger in her first YA novel (which she apologized to after getting a lot of ragey e-mails I think, and promised never to do again) was a shock because I'd read her adult books, but even though I trusted her as an author I was pretty upset because I couldn't see any valid story or writing purpose for the cliffhanger. So I guess that's the main thing--don't end on a cliffhanger just to end on a cliffhanger.

Re: TLDR; I have to trust the author & think there's a good reason

[naomi-jay.livejournal.com]

Eek, I'll be interested to see what you make of the end of Night and Chaos now! :)

Re: TLDR; I have to trust the author & think there's a good reason

[eldestmuse.livejournal.com]

Yeah I kind of take cliffhangers more seriously than the average bear :x

Re: TLDR; I have to trust the author & think there's a good reason

[out-totheblack.livejournal.com]

That's quite an assessment. I've read all the Dresdens and when I got to the end of #12, I wanted to beat the Jim about the head and neck profusely for leaving me there. I can't wait to see what happens next. It was for me, definitely a WTF moment.

I've only read the first Vineart book. I wasn't too happy where she left it off. To me, it felt like she was just getting going, that every thing so far had been gearing up to that point. I will read the rest, just haven't gotten to them yet.

I haven't read the other two.

Re: TLDR; I have to trust the author & think there's a good reason

[eldestmuse.livejournal.com]

Not going to say I didn't go "omfg wtf Jim, what's going to happen next!!" or that I didn't freak out and re-read it like six times trying to divine the meaning of what had just happened and what would happen next (wtb Ghost Story nao plx) -- Just saying that I didn't get angry in the betrayed reader sense of the term. It made sense and we all knew that was how Dresden was going to bite it -- they have the "this is how I would kill a wizard" way too often for it to have been leading up to anything else. Unexpected, yes. But I don't think it was a poorly done cliffhanger, the way the faefever books are, or even in the "well I had to end somewhere and didn't really account for needing dramatic climaxes and resolutions in my three-book outline."

Re: TLDR; I have to trust the author & think there's a good reason

[out-totheblack.livejournal.com]

I love the Dresden Files. One of the few series I'll buy anthologies for so I can catch a short story. Yeah, how to kill a wizard was an ongoing conversation. I don't think Kincaid did it though. I've read the last three books several times now trying to get a clue (grrr).

Sounds like I need to avoid the faefever books

Re: TLDR; I have to trust the author & think there's a good reason

[eldestmuse.livejournal.com]

I don't think Kincaid did it, he kind of owes Dresden a favor for helping Ivy and he doesn't seem to be the type to be taking on new contracts, but I do think those discussions came about so often because Jim wanted to hint that a sudden abrupt end for Dresden was in the offing -- but of course it won't be permanent.

Re: TLDR; I have to trust the author & think there's a good reason

[dwg.livejournal.com]

Story arcs that last 3-4 books is fine, and so are red herrings and set-ups in earlier books, but for god sakes don't leave me hanging on one question for four books and make it one of the central pieces of your story and end every single book on a cliffhanger in the middle of the action that hints to a resolution that never comes even in the next book.

And this sums up why I hate Kim Harrison's books so much. Or at least the first two. I have the third one sitting on my shelf, unread, and can't quite bring myself to slog through it. I've heard that things apparently improve, but man...I think I need to be really drunk if I'm going to try it.

Also one of the (many, many) reasons why I dislike LKH's Merry Gentry series so much - there was one book that got split into two (I think it was Seduced by Moonlight/Stroke of Midnight?) and there was a cliffhanger ending, which was completely stupid given that nothing happened. No set up for the next part, no resolution of previous arcs, just a lot of waffle and an abrupt end. Siiiigh.

Re: TLDR; I have to trust the author & think there's a good reason

[eldestmuse.livejournal.com]

This.

I don't mind the Hallows (they improve then get bad again, so don't bother imo, I know a bit of your reading habits from the lashouts comm) so much but LKH's Merry Gentry series had potential and was up front about the smut, but my god, nothing was ever resolved.

Re: TLDR; I have to trust the author & think there's a good reason

[out-totheblack.livejournal.com]

I keep hoping there will be one more book. I'm over Anita Blake.

Re: TLDR; I have to trust the author & think there's a good reason

[out-totheblack.livejournal.com]

You left out all the gratuitous sex.

Re: TLDR; I have to trust the author & think there's a good reason

[dwg.livejournal.com]

But I did say many, many reasons. Seriously, the MG books are a complete shambles.

[intothenyght.livejournal.com]

I have to say, I'm not a big fan of cliffhangers unless they are exceptionally well done.

And I honestly can't even recall one off the top of my head that has been!

I think leaving some strings/subplots untied is fine (especially if you're planning on making it a series) but I think leaving the main plot wide open is just going to frustrate readers.

But alas, this is just my opinion. I'm sure there are people out there that love them!

[i-am-toast.livejournal.com]

Bit of a left-field idea, but why don't you try the comics concept? Release your novels (or novella) for weekly download or as a discounted full work on completion. Gives you breathing room to tweak whilst completely avoiding the 'ended on a cliffhanger and now I have to wait how long?' syndrome.

As a massive comics geek, I must admit I almost always wait for the trade to be released; there's a lovely tingle of anticipation there. But knowing I can get hold of the next bit of a story stops me from chucking a series in disgust when there will be a long wait for the next installment.

[spiderling.livejournal.com]

I don't write cliffhangers. I come from either having written comics that were complete unto themselves or episodic enough to be cancelled at any point. So I write complete things. That's not to say I wouldn't write a sequel if anyone wanted one, but I like things that just end becuase books are expensive and I don't buy them anymore *coughbuysdolls* so I want something that I don't HAVE to get another book that the library may or may not have because it didn't resolve.

[tezmillertm.livejournal.com]

Don't like cliffhangers! Stories should be self-contained.

Yes, I'm an opinionated bitch when it comes to reading ;-)